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ON RESUMPTION ON 2ND FEBRUARY 1999 - DAY 2
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 ON RESUMPTION ON 2ND FEBRUARY 1999 - DAY 2

NAME:&#9;MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to you all. This is our second sitting in Nelspruit. The date is the 2nd of February 1999. The Panel that will be proceeding to hear the applications set down for today, is the same as the one that sat yesterday. 

&#9;Before we proceed with the application of Mr Sithomo and Mr Hadebe, we would like to announce the decision in respect of the application that we heard yesterday, of Mr Anthony Mhletswa Ndlangamandla.

&#9;F I N D I N G

&#9;Our decision in respect of that application is as follows:

&#9;Mr Ndlangamandla applied for amnesty in respect of his conviction on the 25th of May 1994, at Piet Retief, for the murder of Mr Ben Mkosi at Lahlampondo, Pongola on the 30th of November 1993. Ndlangamandla was sentenced to 10 years imprisonment which he is currently serving at Barberton Prison.

&#9;Notices in terms of Section 19(4) have been served on the deceased's family, who did not attend the hearing. The applicant, Mr Ndlangamandla who was represented by Mr D Claassen, and testified in support of his application. He confirmed his application. He confirmed his application and the affidavit which 

forms part of the papers. In fact he wanted to read the entire affidavit and was eventually persuaded not to do so, in the light of the fact that the Committee had already taken note of his affidavit.

&#9;We do not in intend to traverse the evidence of the applicant in any detail, suffice to say he was not a very good witness. His testimony was fraught with numerous inconsistencies and contradictions. It also differed in material respect with the allocations or versions contained in his application and the affidavit referred to herein.

&#9;An instance of this kind of problem with his evidence, is that in his application he refers to the incident in which his grandfather was killed. He says, and we quote him:

&#9;&#9;"Me, I was behind the house of him (him being his grandfather's house) and watching."

However, in his viva voce evidence before us, he stated that his grandfather was killed during fighting between two armed groups of the ANC and IFP supporters, which took place in an open area away from houses and other structures, and that he was a few paces away from his grandfather when this happened.

&#9;It is clear to us that this and other instances of non-disclosure are aimed at establishing a political context to support the applicant's assertion that his acts were associated with a political objective. 

&#9;In the result we are not satisfied that Mr Ndlangamandla has complied with Section 20(1) of the Act, and his application is ACCORDINGLY REFUSED.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, you will communicate this to Mr Ndlangamandla?

MR CLAASSEN: I will so, Madam Chair.



































NAME:&#9;MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE

MATTER:&#9;GRENADE ATTACK ON BUS

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CHAIRPERSON: That being so then can we proceed to hear the matter that is set down for today, that of Mr Mzobona Leonard Hadebe and Rapheal Senzagakhona Sithomo? Mr Claassen, are we ready to proceed?

MR CLAASSEN: We are ready to proceed, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, are we ready to proceed?

MS THABETE: We are, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, are we ready to proceed?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, we are, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we do so, may we for purposes of the record, have the legal representatives placing their names?

MR CLAASSEN: Legal representation for the applicant, Mr Dawie Claassen.

MR SITHOLE: Legal representative for the victims, J T Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. On behalf of the Committee?

MS THABETE: Ms Thabile Thabete, the Evidence Leader, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Claassen, which applicant are you going to commence with?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, we are going to commence with the application of Mr Mzobona Leonard Hadebe. Madam Chair, before I commence, I would just like to place on record before the Committee, that as a Committee I'm well aware Mr Hadebe has submitted in support of his application two sworn affidavits relating to certain incidents. 

&#9;Madam Chair, it is my submission that with regard to the second, as indexed in the bundle, the second application, the second affidavit by Mr Hadebe indeed contains certain statements and submissions which are indeed of an incriminating nature, Madam Chair. 

&#9;It is my instruction by the applicant that he wishes to amend his application to include some of these acts or omissions referred to in the particular statement.

&#9;Madam Chair, it is also my intention then to bring a further amended application which clearly states with regard to which of the incidents mentioned in this second affidavit we intend bringing a further amnesty application.

&#9;Madam Chair, for the purposes of the amnesty hearing today it is our wish that we wish to bring only an application as stated in his Form 1, with regard to the offence for which he's currently serving a jail sentence.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Claassen, may I just interpose here?

It's not bringing a further application. Perhaps you phrased it incorrectly. I take it that you want to amend your application. It's one application relating to various incidents. Perhaps we could just get that right for the record.

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, you are indeed correct. It is indeed just an amendment of the current application.

CHAIRPERSON: It is in fact, Mr Claassen, an amendment only of paragraph 9(a)?

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Of Mr Hadebe's application?

MR CLAASSEN: That is indeed correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And only to the extent of including the acts for which he has already in his affidavit, given a statement in support of his written application but which he omitted to include in Form 1 of his application?

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon my choice or words, Madam Chair, that is indeed correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then quickly, without having to make any elaborate application, can you just give an indication of the incidents for which he intended to apply for amnesty and which appears, I think from page 10 of the bundle.

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Unit page 14. Can you just enumerate the incidents for which you would like to have them included in Form 1 of his application form?

MR CLAASSEN: Certainly, Madam Chair. Those incidents would included, I think it starts from paragraph 5 and specifically 2.10, the applicants involvement in an instruction or conspiracy to attack and indeed attacks on Vuyu Section of the place where he was staying and the attack on some of the residents there.

&#9;Also as set out in paragraph 5, the illegal involvement in firearms ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You say paragraph 5? 

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, Madam Chair, I mean paragraph 9. 

&#9;Madam Chair, I also specifically wish to refer to an incident which is set out in paragraph 15, concerning his involvement with the organisation, Uwusa, and attacks in this capacity on the organisation Fawu.

&#9;Madam Chair, further also an incident referred to in paragraph 19, which according to the applicant's statement, occurred sometime during 1992, involving an attack at a stadium in Greylingstad. 

&#9;As well as a further incident as set out in paragraph 21, concerning an alleged attack on funeral goers, in which the applicant was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think paragraph 9(a) is then amended to include not only the murder in respect of the incident that occurred on the 28th of September 1992 at Ratanda in the district of Heidelberg, but to include the other incidents as enumerated herein by Mr Claassen and as contained in the further affidavit deposed to by Mr Hadebe.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. I wish to thank the Committee for affording me this opportunity to enumerate on the paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we must make it clear that we are aware that Mr Hadebe was completing this application without any legal assistance.

MR CLAASSEN: That is indeed my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now ready to proceed in respect of the Ratanda incident?

MR CLAASSEN: I am ready to proceed, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Hadebe going to take an oath?

MR CLAASSEN: He is going to take an oath, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, will you please rise? Your full names are Mzobona Leonard and your surname is Hadebe?

MR HADEBE: That's correct.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down, you have taken an oath.

EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, as I previously mentioned, you are currently serving a jail sentence for an incident which occurred on the 28th of September 1992 at Ratanda Hostel in Heidelberg, is that correct?

MR HADEBE: That's correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, could you tell the Commission if you are a member of any political party?

MR HADEBE: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Which party would that be?

MR HADEBE: IFP, that's Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR CLAASSEN: How long have you been a member of this party?

MR HADEBE: I would say starting from 1990.

MR CLAASSEN: During 1992, were you a member of the IFP?

MR HADEBE: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: In what capacity?

MR HADEBE: I was a Secretary General and also the Secretary.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you saying that you were the Secretary General or the Secretary for the particular region?

MR HADEBE: I was trying to say I was a Secretary for the Heidelberg region.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, during this time, 1992, you were also ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Claassen, I think he was still proceeding to explain ...

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the other positions he held within the IFP, when I interrupted.

MR CLAASSEN: Could you please continue, Mr Hadebe?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, you were explaining that you were the Secretary for the IFP in Heidelberg, and you wanted to continue to explain the other position that you held during that time in 1992.

MR HADEBE: I was also the leader of the Chairperson of the youth.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, during this time you were also employed, where did you work during this time?

MR HADEBE: I was working at Escort Bacon.

MR CLAASSEN: And you also lived in the Ratanda Hostel, is that correct?

MR HADEBE: That's correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, on the 28th of September 1992, an incident occurred for which you are bring an amnesty application today, could you just briefly in your own words state what exactly happened, and your involvement in what had occurred.

MR HADEBE: Thank you. 

&#9;&#9;"Madam Chairperson, I would like to explain this way. On the 28th of September a bus was bombed. This bus was carrying ANC supporters. The reason why it was bombed was because we had been fighting in that community in Ratanda, which is in Heidelberg. The fighting was between the IFP and the ANC ..."

CHAIRPERSON: We would like you to slow down as you give your evidence. As you continue to give evidence it is being translated in different languages and therefore we would like you to slow down please, and we are also writing down whatever you say.

MR HADEBE: Thanks, I will try and do that.

CHAIRPERSON: You were still explaining the reasons why the bus was bombed.

MR HADEBE: 

&#9;&#9;"The reason why the ANC bus was bombed was because they had been fighting in the community in Ratanda, which was between two political organisations, the ANC and the IFP. The reason why we had to commit this act was because most members of the IFP had already been killed and we were diminishing in number. We were being killed because we were IFP. That is my opinion. They were saying that they don't want any IFP members in that particular area in Ratanda, they wanted it to be an ANC stronghold. &#9;

&#9;&#9;&#9;One Sunday, if I remember well it was on the 27th of September 1992, one of our Induna's, the headman who was in charge in the hostel, our leader in the hostel, was killed. His name was - I would say his surname was Nyaki and his name was Mgababa. After he was killed on that Sunday and he had been killed by ANC members, these members were working with us in the same company or firm. Early the next morning which was Monday, when we were going to work, to report at work, I entered and reported at work. We started work as usual. As all the workers were getting into the factory - I was in the "slag" department which is a butchery, the people who were coming to work started insulting each other and I was surprised. 

&#9;&#9;&#9;Some members of the ANC inside the same factory in my department, pointed fingers at me saying that you are the only one that's left. You are in front and we are going to find you, we are going to get you. I became afraid after hearing these words, therefore I approached one of the headmen who was in charge in our section. I asked him that I'm not happy with the situation here, in other words I'm not feeling well and therefore I will need to go and consult with a doctor. He agreed and said that he's going to go and inform our foreman and he said I can leave so that I can get a taxi to go to the doctor because if the taxis run out of the firm's gate I will not be able to walk on foot until I reach town where I could get taxis. The reason was that I might die on the way if I don't get a taxi to take me to town. 

&#9;&#9;&#9;When he left to go and inform the foreman, I also went out and took off my overall and wore my formal clothes. I went straight to the township. I alighted from the taxi next to the hostel in Ratanda. I went and stayed inside the hostel. 

&#9;&#9;&#9;Coming to the bombing of the bus, it was during the evening. I won't say it was late evening, it was about late afternoon, in the evening ..."

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, won't you please take charge of the evidence that is being presented to us?

MR CLAASSEN: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: I have not been able to know the relevance.

MR CLAASSEN: As the Committee pleases. 

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence that has been led up to now by Mr Hadebe, I do not understand it's relevance in relation to the incident for which amnesty is being sought by him. Won't you please just try and come to our assistance so that we can curtail these proceedings without having to lead unnecessary evidence?

MR CLAASSEN: I will do so, Madam Chair.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, just getting back to the situation at work, was the situation at work - you now indicated that you were a member of the IFP and there was opposition in the work context. The work situation, were the workers at the factory predominantly IFP supporting or ANC supporting?

MR HADEBE: I won't be able to estimate who were the majority, I would say we were about 50/50.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, you also mentioned now that when leaving the factory you made use of a taxi, is there any relevance to this? Why did you specifically take a taxi?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we've covered that, Mr Claassen, unless you think there is something that will be taking us to ...(inaudible) be relevant in respect of the incident itself for which amnesty is being sought, we would like him to cover that aspect.

MR CLAASSEN: As the Committee pleases, Madam Chair. I just wish to establish that certain modes of transport were used by certain political factions.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed then.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 

&#9;Mr Hadebe, could you just explain why did you specifically take a taxi and not for instance a bus?

MR HADEBE: I took a taxi because we didn't use the buses because it was known that only the ANC members could use buses and the IFP members should take taxis. Even the taxis, there were two groups of taxis. Others carried the ANC members, others carried the ANC(sic) members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, if I could just return to the incident you mentioned on the 27th September, the preceding Sunday. You said that an IFP Induna, Mr Mgababa Nyaki was killed and that there was a meeting held, what exactly happened at this particular meeting?

MR HADEBE: 

&#9;&#9;"The death of Mgababa makes us aware that we are being killed and we are getting finished and we should make some plans to also attack the ANC because they were intensively attacking us. Then we decided to have a plan and we sat down and discussed as to how we were going to attack the ANC.

&#9;At the time when we were discussing this, we sat as a committee and the chairperson was Thokozani Biela. When discussing this plan to attack the ANC members, because it looked like they were already defeating us when we tried to fight with them head-on or we tried to follow them. Therefore, we tried to find some other ways where we could find them in a group or in big numbers and attack them.

&#9;&#9;Then we agreed that since we know that there are taxis that only carry Inkatha and we also know that there are taxis which carried the ANC members together with the buses, so we decided that maybe we should attack one of their buses so that we can send a message to them to show them that we are also brave and prepared to fight them.

&#9;&#9;My involvement in that planning was the planning itself, that the bus should be bombed because if we have to shoot at it, firing at it might not be effective but we need something that is going to destroy everything, and we agreed on that point.

&#9;&#9;Therefore, Thokozani Biela who was our chairperson selected two Indunas, saying that they will be responsible with selecting people who were going to carry out that plan, the plan to attack the ANC. 

&#9;&#9;The Indunas went aside and discussed this issue amongst themselves. These two Indunas was Zaccarehia Sipho Mhlongo. The other one was Thandogwake Ndlovu. When they came back they said we have people who are going to attack the ANC people. We have already selected them. When we leave this meeting we will go and inform them. That was the final agreement. And we dispersed.

&#9;&#9;On Monday, the date on which the incident took place, I was coming from work and the other people who were not working were at the hostel. Our chairperson, Thokozani Biela was working in the municipality in the township. He was unable to go to work. 

&#9;&#9;When I came back from work, I found that they were having a meeting. We stayed there in the meeting until late in the afternoon. And then those people who were selected to go and attack left us to go and wait for the bus. The people who were elected were Alfred Boss Mazibuko and Nkosinathi Kanyle, together with Nkosinathi Emmanuel Ndletshe and Mzwaki Myaba.

...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry, can you just slow down a little bit. Just repeat those names for us please? Alfred Boss Mazibuko, Nkosinathi who?

MR HADEBE: The name of the people who were supposed to attack the bus are as follows: The first one is Alfred Boss Mazibuko, the second one is Nkosinathi Kanyle, the third on is Nkosinathi Emmanuel Ndletshe, the fourth one is Mzwaki Myaba. Those are the people who attacked the bus. 

&#9;Coming to how they attacked the bus, I would say they went to hide next to the garage. I don't remember the name of the garage next to the hostel or the filling station next to the ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Did you see this or did you hear about it, Mr Hadebe?

MR HADEBE: I see this. I'm still going to explain how I saw it or as to where I was standing.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR HADEBE: 

&#9;&#9;&#9;"As they went there to wait for the bus next to the filling station, I was so disturbed in, spiritually disturbed because of the things that the ANC was doing to us and I was therefore driven by my own convictions to leave the meeting and went straight to the gate of the hostel. So from that position I could see what was happening in the vicinity of the filling station.

&#9;&#9;&#9;As the bus was coming and as it was reaching the garage, the filling station itself, they stood up, they attacked us. They were standing in different positions. I was looking at them at that particular moment. 

&#9;&#9;&#9;As the bus was parallel to one of the blocks of the hostel and they were already up by that time, ready to attack it, I heard a terrible explosion and I ran there behind one of a small office in the hostel. It was an office which was no longer in use.

&#9;&#9;&#9;There was a soldier's car which was just at the gate of the hostel since there were police already staying the outside the hostel. When these things were happening some of the police were just standing outside the hostel. At the time of the explosion some of those police ran into their Casspir, some ran together with me to hide behind the office which I just explained before.

&#9;&#9;&#9;I was so relieved that they did get the target. After that I went out to see what was happening. At that time the bus has been derailed from the road and it was driving along the graveyard and it ended up joining another street in the township. I think it's called Mpanza Street."

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, if I may just return to this meeting the previous night. You indicated that a decision was made, was an instruction given from anyone to commit this particular crime?

MR HADEBE: Yes, someone did give instructions.

MR CLAASSEN: Were you given any instructions?

MR HADEBE: I personally wasn't given any instructions to do anything, however it was our agreement at the table of the meeting, that things should be done. In particular I'm here to ask amnesty in that in reference to the bus incident even if I personally did not with my own arm attack the bus. 

&#9;The people who says you did put a hand or you did attack the bus, I cannot dismiss that allegation or I agree with them because they did see me at the vicinity at the time the bus was attacked. I was visible, I wasn't hiding. 

&#9;And in this house, this present house where I am today and before these people who are inside listening to my evidence, and to the people who are victims of such attack, I would like them to know that today I'm talking the truth, the whole truth, the final truth. Some people who were working with us know exactly who carried out the attack on the bus. 

&#9;Even the ANC people, some of them know that it's not me who did attack the bus. However, I tried to emphasise that I didn't hit or attack the bus, however I admit that I was involved in the planning of the attack on the bus.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, the meeting at which this attack was planned, the members present, was this in a party political context?

MR HADEBE: Yes, those were members of our political organisation and they were a committee, they constituted a committee. It wasn't a general meeting for all the people but it was a committee meeting. Only the committee members would attend the meeting.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just ask, what was your status at the meeting, were you a committee member, were you there in your capacity as chairman, what was your status at the meeting?

MR HADEBE: As I said before I was a secretary, so I was writing down everything which was said.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, could you just briefly elaborate. You were staying in the Ratanda Hostel inside the bigger township, what were the political sentiments inside the hostel?

MR HADEBE: The hostel is not right inside the location or the township, the hostel is at the entrance when you enter the township when coming from town. You have to pass the hostel before you reach the township.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, the people living in the hostel, which political party did they predominantly support?

MR HADEBE: They were mostly IFP members, that's Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR CLAASSEN: And the township of Ratanda, what would you say was the leading political sentiments inside the township?

MR HADEBE: Inside the township there were mixed, there were Inkatha and ANC but the ANC was dominating. There were many organisations which had members inside the township, but the majority were ANC members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, could you just briefly - what was the atmosphere like between the residents of the hostel and the people inside Ratanda itself?

MR HADEBE: Things were very difficult, or the situation was tense because I personally wasn't able to enter the township during that time because there was this fighting. Not only me myself, even other people from the hostel couldn't easily enter the township. It's either when you go there you will come back running or you'll come back dead or many bad things might happen to you, or the reason because you're a hostel resident or that you are, also for the reason that you are an IFP member.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, at this meeting you testified that it was decided to concentrate on a bigger target, why was there specifically decided on a bus?

MR HADEBE: The reason why we chose to attack the bus is that we know that it carries a bigger number of people compared to a taxi. That is the reason why we chose a bus and we all supported that. The other reason was that because they were using buses.

MR CLAASSEN: Who are the "they" you are referring to?

MR HADEBE: People who were using buses were ANC members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, by perpetrating this act, what did you or your party hope to achieve?

MR HADEBE: We were going to achieve - I would say firstly, we were going to achieve preventing the ANC from getting more support in the area because people were going to be afraid and decide to go and join the IFP instead of the ANC, and when they come to join our organisation, the IFP, it will be the time where we will be getting stronger and gaining more power in the township and we would have a bigger number of supporters. I would say that's it.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, in your personal capacity, did you stand to gain anything from this attack?

MR HADEBE: No, I wasn't going to gain anything.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you have any personal motives, did you know any of the people on the bus, any specific reason for attacking the bus which was selected?

MR HADEBE: I would say I personally if it was myself, taking into account the way I was so frustrated and angry, if the Indunas selected me to go and do it, I would have done the job because I hated the people.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you were frustrated and your spirit was low, what is it that frustrated you and lowered you spirit before this incident?

MR HADEBE: I was frustrated because our members were being killed, members of the Inkatha Freedom Party and they came straight to me and pointed me right on my face and said you are the one who is left and you are going to be killed. 

&#9;All these things frustrated me and I had to leave work that particular day and I was angry with the ANC members even those who were working with us at the factory and who were staying in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say they pointed fingers at you at work, was it during the very same Monday during which the incident took place?

MR HADEBE: They pointed at me in the morning of that particular incident, just before the attack, and they said, as I've explained before they killed Mgababa the previous day and they came to work and said you are the only person who is left and we are coming for you. That frustrated me and made me so angry and I had to leave work.

&#9;The bus was then bombed on the same Monday. On the next day, on Tuesday, I woke up and I was feeling well and I reported to work. They still continued to point fingers at me on Tuesday, those who were at work. Some people didn't come to work.

&#9;They said to me; we saw you, you bombed the bus. They said you must hope the sun mustn't set. I withstood all this and continued working because I knew what I wished to happen had already happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen, you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Claassen, just before you proceed, your client has omitted to answer your question.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, the question that originally put to you by your counsel was, did you know anybody on the bus personally? You have not answered that yet.

MR HADEBE: I would say I knew most of the people in the bus because I worked with them in the same firm and I know which people take that particular bus. Some of them I know their names, some of them I might know them personally but I will say they are people whom I have seen before and I know them.

CHAIRPERSON: How many buses were there that transported people on any given day, from Escort Bacon Factory to the location?

MR HADEBE: In most cases there had been fighting and people didn't report to work as usual, and therefore there were about two buses. The first one would be full, the second one will maybe be half empty.

CHAIRPERSON: The bus that you planned to attack, was that the first or the second bus on that day?

MR HADEBE: Any of the two, any one which would possible, would be easy to attack. We didn't specifically choose a particular bus, the full or the empty one. I would say one of the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Now during your planning, Mr Biela, was he also working at Escort Bacon Factory?

MR HADEBE: No, he wasn't working at the Escort Bacon Factory, he was working in the municipality offices. I don't know what kind of work he was doing there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was he aware that there were two buses at Escort Bacon Factory? Did you make him privy of the situation that existed with regard to the transportation of your colleagues who were ANC members?

MR HADEBE: He knew about the transport arrangement going back and to work. He personally even asked me and he also asked other people, so he would ask anybody about the transport arrangement. So I would say he had information and he knew how we used to go to work.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say that in planning to ambush the bus you gave them all the details that were relevant with regard to how alleged ANC members who were working in your factory travelled in relation to the first and the second bus?

MR HADEBE: I would like to ask you to repeat the question because I don't understand the question.

MR HADEBE: Did you as a person who was fully informed about the two buses that operated between your factory and your locations, did you make the people who participated in the planning meeting, did you make those people aware of the number of buses that operated between the factory and the location and the capacity in relation to the first and the second bus which operated within the route between the factory and the location?

MR HADEBE: Yes, I did give them that information.

CHAIRPERSON: And that information was used in the planning of the ambushing of the bus?

MR HADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, there's just a certain point I'd like to clarify. You testified that there was a meeting on the Sunday evening and when you returned from work on the Monday there was, again you found that a meeting was being held. At which of these two meetings was the actual bombing of a bus initially discussed?

MR HADEBE: The meeting in which we discussed the attack on the bus was the one we held of Mgababa was killed on Sunday. That is where we discussed the plan.

&#9;The one on Monday when I was coming back from work, it was a meeting where those attackers were to be deployed to go and attack the bus, those four people I've just mentioned. They were told they know how they were going to attack and how the Induna's instructions were. That is what was said to them and they were deployed.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, staying on the issues of the buses, you testified that there were two buses because there was a lot of fighting. Under normal circumstances, were there more than two buses on a daily basis?

MR HADEBE: I would say most people in that firm were using taxis only. The reason why there had to be two buses is because there had been fighting and people had to use different modes of transport, therefore they had to bring two buses.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, before the fighting occurred, were there more than two buses? When things were still normal, when there was no conflict in the area, did you have more than two buses operating from work?

MR HADEBE: We didn't have buses, there were only taxis. Buses only operated in the municipality area and some will go to town. We were only using taxis in that area, but after the fighting had started and we had to use different modes of transport, therefore they introduced buses which came only to carry ANC members. I personally wouldn't be allowed to travel on that particular bus because I was an IFP member. I would say buses started operating in our area after the fighting had started.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know who introduced the buses, Mr Hadebe?

MR HADEBE: No, I don't know.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, these particular buses, were they only operated to and from the Escort Bacon Factory and the town of Ratanda?

MR HADEBE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, these buses that you've just mentioned, what was the route that they followed, from and to where did they run on a daily basis?

MR HADEBE: The buses that I know which used to drive along the street will come from the township, Ratanda, they will go to town in Heidelberg and the other one will take the route via the municipality offices which passes - the municipality offices is near to the firm where I'm working.

&#9;But after the fighting started two buses were introduced which will proceed straight in the direction, or enter that particular firm where I was working. And taxis, we ourselves were using taxis which were used only by IFP members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, referring back to the meeting you held, the people who lived in Ratanda Hostel, were they mostly employed at your place of employment or were they employed at different places?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Claassen, can I just come in here. I think you should make it clear to your client to which meeting you are referring. We're already having difficulty in following the two meetings.

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, referring to the meeting on the Sunday evening after the Induna was killed, the people present at that particular meeting, were they mostly work colleagues of yours - let me rephrase that, were they were mostly employed at your place of employment or in different places?

MR HADEBE: Most of the people I would say were a number of people. There were people who were working and some who were not working but there were people who were staying with us together in the hostel.

MR LAX: Sorry, the question was, were the people mostly people who worked with you or not? That was the question.

MR HADEBE: Yes, I was working with them.

MR LAX: So at this meeting - if you'll allow me, Mr Claassen, I'm sorry to interpose.

&#9;Just to be absolutely clear on this, we are talking about the Sunday meeting, the planning meeting. At that meeting most of the people present were people who worked at the bacon factory and who lived in the hostel?

MR HADEBE: On the meeting where we planned the attack, the attack on the bus, it was after a general meeting where all people were there and a committee came out from that general meeting to go and discuss the plan because we were not going to discuss the plan in a general meeting, so therefore a committee was delegated to go and discuss the plan. 

&#9;After the general meeting where all the people attended, we had a meeting where our chairperson was Thokozani Biela and me personally, Hadebe, was present. It was Agrippa Khunene and two Indunas, Thandagwaki Ndlovu and Sipho Zaccarehia Mhlongo and other people whom I can't remember but we were eight in number, all of us. The eight people are the people who discussed the plan, we didn't discuss it in the general meeting.

MR LAX: Now just one last question before you continue, Mr Claassen.

&#9;What committee was this? You keep saying "the committee", "the committee", what committee was it?

MR HADEBE: The committee I'm referring to, there are people who held positions in our organisation, they were people who were responsible for, if there's anything that has to be said to the public or things had to be planned, this is the committee which has to sit to discuss it and then take it to the supporters or the whole community in the area. The committee should sit first before there could be any general meeting with all the members.

MR LAX: Well you see, was it a hostel committee, was it an Inkatha committee, was an Uwusa committee, was it just a Zulu committee of Izinduna, what was it? Do you understand, it's not clear to us what kind of committee it was and that's why I'm asking you.

MR HADEBE: It was an Inkatha committee in the hostel in that region of Ratanda.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which you were the General Secretary?

MR HADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And of which Mr Biela was the Chair?

MR HADEBE: That's correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, just to lead to the circumstances surrounding, that preceded you. You referred to the incident at your workplace that particular Monday, what was the political situation like at your place of employment?

MR HADEBE: The situation at work on that particular Monday morning, we IFP members were confused, the ANC members were jubilant. When I was confused as to why they were happy, I would say I was thinking and in my mind it came to my mind that they might be happy because they might have killed one of our members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, in the time, not that specific day, preceding, let's say a week or more before the incident, what was the situation like in general at your workplace?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, I'm unable to get the ambit of your question. If I can't, I think it will be even more difficult for the Mr Hadebe to be able to respond adequately. Maybe you need to expand when you say what was the situation like in the workplace. I think he's already explained that the membership at that workplace consisted of two groups who didn't see eye to eye, now do you want anything much more than what has already been placed, and if so, in relation to what?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, I will leave it at that.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, maybe just in conclusion, how do you feel now about all that has happened?

MR HADEBE: Presently in my heart I would like to thank for having been given this opportunity to sit before this Commission and I would also like to thank the Commission for having started this process where we can come before it and come and reveal or say everything about ourselves. I would say because people who were victims are also in the position to come and hear the evidence and know they were injured or how they were affected. Thanks.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen. Mr Sithole, do you have any questions to pose to Mr Hadebe?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed and do so.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SITHOLE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

&#9;Mr Hadebe, it's common knowledge that on the day in question, the 28th of September 1992, you left work as an angry man, is that correct?

MR HADEBE: That's correct.

MR SITHOLE: And is it correct further to say that when you left work, you actually said to Vuyi Jogazi that&#9; today is the day you are going to kill them?

MR HADEBE: I will not deny that because the way I was so angry, and I might have said this to this person and today I wouldn't be able to say exactly the words that I've said to the people when I left the place. It they said I said so, I might have said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, they are talking about one person, Vuyi Jogazi, and you are talking more than one person. Do you know Vuyi Jogazi?

MR HADEBE: I will say I know the name. Maybe if I see him I will remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: But now how are you able to agree with Mr Sithole when he mentions that this is what you said to Vuyi Jogazi and you say yes, you cannot deny that, if you don't even know who Vuyi Jogazi is? And you go on to say this is what you might have said to "them" and not even to one person but to "them".

MR HADEBE: As I've said I said things to them, it's because when I left my workplace there were many people standing there where we washed the booths and I had to pass through them. I don't remember saying things, or whether I said things or I didn't since I was angry. There that's the reason why I say I can't deny that I said things, that after they had pointed at me saying that I'm the one that's left, then I knew they were going to kill me, so I might have said things. That is the reason why I said I don't know whether I said those words or not, but I will agree if they so I did because there might have been ...(indistinct) and they know exactly what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do not recall a Vuyi Jogazi, you don't know any person by that name? You might be able to point him out if that person is identified to you, but you didn't know a person by the name of Vuyi Jogazi in your department?

MR HADEBE: No, I didn't know the name so maybe if they point him to me I might be able to recognise him.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I would ask Vuyi Jogazi to stand up so that he could see Vuyi Jogazi.

&#9;Do you know the lady that's just stood up?

MR HADEBE: Yes, I know her, we were working with her.

MR SITHOLE: Do you remember seeing her on the 29th of September 1992 while you were walking out of the factory?

MR HADEBE: I don't remember seeing her.

MR SITHOLE: Do you remember if there were any words that you uttered to any member of the group that was standing while you were walking out of the factory?

MR HADEBE: I remember saying some words before I left and these were directed to an Induna by the name of Zita Myaba, and I said the following to him: I'm not in a position to work with these people or work together with these people, therefore I would like to go out so that I can get some rest. This was the Induna who was in charge of the whole firm. This is the person I talked to. 

&#9;I found him outside as I was getting out. This is the only person I talked to. And as I explained before, I said to him I'm unable to work with these people saying that they are going to kill me. That's how it happened when I left that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, may I interpose, Mr Sithole.

&#9;I didn't get the first name of the Induna, what was his first name?

MR HADEBE: The Induna is Zita Myaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.

&#9;As you left the factory, you will agree with me that you were an angry man and you were angry with the Fawu members, is that correct?

MR HADEBE: To say Fawu members, I would say no, I was angry with the ANC members.

MR SITHOLE: Now when you say you were angry with ANC members, were those ANC members working with you in the factory or you were angry with every ANC member who, every person who was a member of the ANC?

MR HADEBE: Anyone who was a member of ANC, I was angry at him or her on that day.

MR SITHOLE: Now if you're angry with any person who was an ANC member, how did you identify that the people who are going to board that bus are ANC members?

MR HADEBE: This was known to the public or the community that the people who were ANC members and most of them, some will say so and some will wear clothes that you can easily identify them as ANC members, and they will separate themselves from the rest of other people and they would say so as well and they would actually tell that day, we don't want to mix with Inkatha people. They would separate themselves and be on their own as ANC members.

MR SITHOLE: Now people who were boarding that but, I'm specifically talking about people who were boarding that but, how did you identify the fact that they were ANC members?

CHAIRPERSON: Because he has already stated in his evidence-in-chief, quite repeatedly, that only ANC members boarded th